Episode 4: Balancing Stability and Continuous Improvement

Presenters

We’re joined by my colleague John Russell, one of our best water application specialists at METER Group. More than most, John fully understands the often tangled relationship between food manufacturers and water. For the past 14 years, he has been answering questions like….”How can I confidently measure moisture?”... or…”how is water activity the foundation for product safety, quality and profit?” Through customer visits, support, and offering innovative solutions, John thinks the key for food manufacturers is finding the balance between stability and continuous improvement.

Transcript

Zachary Cartwright (00:00):

I'm Zachary Cartwright, this is Water In Food.

John Russell (00:02):

So, little issues you wouldn't think you would have to worry about, you can find solutions for. It's the water interactions that make a difference in whether that product is going to maintain its quality and safety. There's so much learning that you get not from training via our company, but just from being able to interact with those clients. So, we started developing these systems, but in order to do that, we need to be able to really understand the challenges that our customers are going through because we want to have that stability. But we also need the change, so that we can have that continuous improvement.

Zachary Cartwright (00:38):

Water has been called the luck of the planet by Daniel Boorstin, and its impact and significance are evident everywhere in the foods that we eat. Every year, billions of dollars are spent by food manufacturers to move water in and out of food products. As a food scientist, I am on a mission to understand how this can be done better.

Zachary Cartwright (00:56):

Today we're joined by my colleague, John Russell, one of the best water application specialists at Meter Group. More than most John fully understands the often tangled relationship between food manufacturers and water. For the past 14 years, he has been answering questions like how can I competently measure moisture, or how is water activity the foundation for product safety, quality and profit? Let's hear a little about John Russell and what he has to say on water and food.

Zachary Cartwright (01:25):

You and I have been working together for about a year now, or even longer. It's just kind of crazy how time has flown by. But I started last summer and I remember one of the first things I learned when I started at Meter Group is that you're kind of the guru, you're the go-to guy, and you've been doing this for quite some time. So, I thought you could just fill us in about your time at Meter Group. How long have you been at Meter and what has your journey looked like at this company?

John Russell (01:54):

Sure. Great question. I've actually had gone through a fair amount of change and had a lot of interactions with clients in different ways over the years. I started in 2006 and at that time I was the 61st employee, the company has grown exponentially since. So, I got in, in time to see all those changes over the years. But I started out doing customer service and technical support and repairs. I was hired on to be a customer service guy, but part of that, there's so much technical support that goes on, I needed to learn how the equipment works. So, I spent a lot of time training with repairs, and then we put those departments together, which was actually a department of three people at the time. Two repair technicians and myself, and we would trade off different roles. So, really got to have an intimate knowledge of the equipment itself that we sell.

John Russell (02:51):

And so in 2008, the company was still growing and customer service split from repairs. I continued to do customer service, but then also added onsite services. So, if there was an onsite repair or an onsite calibration service required, or IQ, OQ, then I would go onsite. And that gave me a chance to start interacting face-to-face with our clients. So, previous to that, all of the support and things I'd given were over the telephone or email. And so this gave me a chance to actually see the production facilities where things were being made and see the quality labs or the R and D labs that our customers were using our equipment in. And so it gave me a broader perspective in that way.

John Russell (03:39):

And then in 2012, I moved into a sales role, in combination with still doing customer service. And that was in Canada. We were wanting to grow the market in Canada and so started doing more outreach in Canada. And that was another opportunity for me to go visit clients, learn about the kinds of issues they run into and the challenges they have, and then find ways that our company can offer solutions that address those challenges. And in that role, there's so much learning that you get, not from training via our own company, but just from being able to interact with those clients. And you learn so much better about what we do with our equipment, with water activity and moisture absorption, [isotherms 00:04:29] and moisture content and how that fits into a real world situation. So, those interactions, one-on-one with customers, where you're actually trying to seek to find solutions are really beneficial. It's helped us as a company grow.

John Russell (04:46):

And then in 2016, that's when I moved to the East Coast. I was raised in the Willamette Valley in Oregon, and then was living in Pullman, Washington for the first 10 years that I worked there at a Meter Group, and then moving out to the East Coast, that was very much a discovery role. And so that became my primary responsibility was reaching out to clients and learning what their challenges are. So, at that time period, we were looking to move into more modern systems, systems that made life easier for our clients and made things more automated. But also made them more profitable. And so we started developing these systems. But in order to do that, we need to be able to really understand the challenges that our customers are going through on a deeper level than we had previously. I did a lot of customer, and talking with clients and learning and reporting, and that became part of my role.

John Russell (06:08):

Then I moved into an account executive position where I'm focused now on giving more solutions. Obviously with COVID, we've got a lot fewer customer interactions. But having that background has really helped my outreach to customers and clients, even when it's just by telephone or email or a video chat opportunity. So, yeah, and that's where I am today. [crosstalk 00:06:40].

Zachary Cartwright (06:40):

Sure, it sounds like you've done a lot with the company and you must've started back when it was Decagon Devices in Pullman. What originally brought you to Pullman, Washington?

John Russell (06:53):

Oh, well, came for family reasons. So, grandparents had been living in Moscow, Idaho, which is just across the border from Pullman, Washington, and needed some in-home care. I came for that purpose and then ended up staying.

Zachary Cartwright (07:11):

You were here a while, right? And then you took the position on the East Coast, and it sounds like during that time we've done tons of traveling, like you said, lots of interactions with different types of clients. Do you have any favorite interactions or favorite clients that you've gotten to work with over the years?

John Russell (07:29):

Well, I don't want to give names of favorites. I mean, sure. I'm one of 14 children and ask my mom who's her favorite child. You don't want to divulge that kind of information. But what's really great in working with customers is when you can really see a solution you've provided really fix an issue for them. If you can help a customer's life be easier, there's less work involved, things are more clear and more profitable for them, then it that's really rewarding. It's when you can see that you've really made a difference. That is what I like.

Zachary Cartwright (08:08):

Sure. And what kind of issues have you worked on over the past years?

John Russell (08:14):

Oh, well, what kinds of issues? Of course, we're working with water activity, which is a measure of energy of water. And water is a life... I mean, it's a necessity for life. But it's also known as the universal solvent. So, if you think of water, we have an abundance here, and whether you're you're working with products that are extremely dry, like powders and so forth, or very wet, it's the water interactions that make a difference in whether that product is going to maintain its quality and safety. And so if you can think of that water as causing biological, chemical, physical degradation over time, potentially, then honing in on the perfect way to measure that water and maintain that water in your system, whether it's very dry or very wet, is essential for being able to continue to give a quality product.

John Russell (09:20):

So, what you asked is a very broad question. It's innumerable the kinds of issues that people have around water and we measure water. So, if you can help... The primary thing, when I first started clients would want, was a way to know that microbes weren't going to grow in their foods. So, they were concerned about safety. Not thinking about chemical and physical stability over time. And yet they didn't have adequate ways to measure moisture that would allow them to maintain physical and chemical stability. One example is a pet treat manufacturer. They were making pet biscuits and they put a yogurt frosting overtop, and it seems very easy. They would bake the biscuit, they'd melt down the yogurt frosting, smear it on top. And for some reason, if they didn't let the biscuits sit for a couple of days in the warehouse before putting the yogurt on, the yogurt would all flake off.

John Russell (10:24):

And so why would that be? Well, because those biscuits, when they came out of the oven, had higher water energy or water activity than did the yogurt sauce. And so then water would move as it sat, water would move from the cookie into the yogurt frosting and their frosting would flake. So, little issues you wouldn't think you would have to worry about, you can find solutions for and help them understand it. So, if I can dry the cookie down more efficiently, I don't have to have them sitting in a warehouse where they're essentially drying over time, before I can put the yogurt on. So, then they can set up a system that does that. And then you've got a perfect quality product that isn't breaking up in the bag when it goes to the customer. So, that's one example of a [crosstalk 00:11:16].

Zachary Cartwright (11:15):

Yeah, that's a great example. And it sounds like, of course you've done a lot of work in the food industry. Are there other industries or other market segments that you're working with now that you maybe wouldn't have worked with 10 or 20 years ago when you first started?

John Russell (11:32):

Well, like I mentioned, water is the universal solvent and it's in everything on planet earth. Thank goodness it is. But it's in everything, which means anything [inaudible 00:11:42] make... So, building materials are a good example. If I have a powder that I don't want to cake and clump, then I need to understand the moisture in that powder. If I have drywall, for example, that don't want to crumble or mold, I need to understand the [inaudible 00:11:59]. But I want it to be able to press and hold together, so it actually is a sheet that holds together. So, all of these things are moisture related. The petroleum industry, things like duraframe logs or charcoal briquettes, pharmaceuticals, and cosmetics. So, these are all things that understanding moisture in the product...

John Russell (12:25):

Drilling lubricants is an example of a client that we worked closely with and finding solutions. It had to do with when they're drilling down in the ground, there's a certain amount of spray that goes in and the lubricants need to be able to react with water in a certain way so that it doesn't seize up and so it continues to do its job. That was a measure of moisture that needed to be done, or of water activity that needed to be done, in order for them to maintain that lubricant the way that it needed to be. So, lots and lots of examples.

Zachary Cartwright (12:57):

Yeah. Did you ever think when you were little that you would have this type of job and that you would be so focused on this thing, this water energy? I know for myself, I was interested in civil engineering and architecture and in different things, med school at one time, and, yeah, you and I are both here and water activity is both very important to both of our positions at Meter. So, what did you think you were going to do and how has your job at Meter Group been fulfilling to yourself?

John Russell (13:32):

When I was a young child, I wanted to be an archeologist. It's always fascinating. I'm always watching discovery channel still because I love that element of archeology and history and so forth. But I was also a country boy, I was raised in a rural setting and we had farm animals. I milked cows. My mother was raised on a berry farm, and I started working berry fields when I was 11 years old. And so I had this sort of background that worked around food and that food supply chain type stuff, but not in a manufacturing setting. So, I kind of had, when people would say, you go to the grocery store and you need to know where that meat comes from, I had that sort of feeling. I didn't have an understanding of where a box of macaroni and cheese, what goes into making that.

John Russell (14:27):

And my eyes have been opened in that regard. There's so much work that goes on in creating safe, healthy, profitable products that are consistent in their quality and lasts their shelf life. This is a big undertaking for any company making a food product. There are so many potential hazards that you have to be aware of and be able to protect your customers from, and being able to make a plan that does that. And then even when it's not a hazard, to give a pleasing product that is consistently pleasing every time. There's so much work that goes into doing that. And so when I see that we can provide a system that allows them to be able to maintain consistency in their process while also making improvements.

John Russell (15:18):

So, one of the things I've seen across the board with our clients, what's important, this idea that I always want to do a little bit better. I always want to do a little bit better. I want to maintain quality be a little bit better. I want to make more profits. But there's also this need to feel stable and in control. The idea of changing is really hard for us because we want to have that stability, but we also need the change so that we can have that continuous improvement, so getting that balance. And if we can provide systems that allow people to see what's going on in their factory and to facilitate that the system became that point of stability and the system facilitates the change that are needed to make improvements. And so that's what's most rewarding, is if you can see that happening for the clients, that they've been able to have that comfort level of the consistency while also making the improvements and higher profits and higher quality products.

Zachary Cartwright (16:27):

And are there any current improvements or things that are being worked on at Meter Group that you're excited about? What's the rest of this year look like for you and for our company and what are you looking forward to?

John Russell (16:42):

Ah, well, we have been continuing to make improvements in our products. So, we've been able to bring new systems on board. For example, we can use artificial intelligence now to accurately give both water activity and moisture content readings in just one minute. This is something that has never been done before. Traditionally it would take an hour to get that moisture content meter with a hygrometer stuck in a small jar or something, while you're measuring. Until we came out with ways to measure vapor pressure. So, when we're measuring water activity or the energy of water, we're measuring vapor pressure. And so if we get a direct measurement of vapor pressure, we can give much faster readings. That brought it to five minutes.

John Russell (17:35):

So, now with artificial intelligence, we can actually see an equilibration curve and map out that product as it comes to equilibrium with vapor pressure above the samples, so that we can give a reading in just one minute, accurately predicting what the final result would be. It's pretty amazing to see. And so then if you can relate that vapor pressure also to moisture content, we can map out for a given product, what the moisture content is based on that vapor pressure, which we can predict in one minute. It works incredibly well. So, it's really exciting to see some of the solutions we're coming out with that haven't been available in the past to anyone, and we're being able to continue to make those things. It's really exciting to work for a company that continues to be progressive in that way. And it makes it so much more affordable for the customer, as well, and profitable,

Zachary Cartwright (18:32):

Right? I've been amazed, just in my short time at Meter Group, just our team, we have everywhere from software developers to engineers to food scientists, like myself. And I got to be a part of that project, bringing that one minute water activity and moisture content. It's amazing the power that, that has to be able to give you a reading so quickly. The amount that, that can give you control over your process and help you to reduce variation. That's been exciting, I think for you and also for me. And then from here, what's the most enjoyable part of your job and what encourages you to get up every day and keep doing what you're doing?

John Russell (19:17):

Well, I think it's my clients. I love my clients and I love talking with them, and I love hearing about their own scenarios that they're working with. Their struggles and their successes. And I get to do that. I see myself as a student of my clients, so much of what I have picked up over the years has been taught to me by my clients. And so being able to teach and learn simultaneously, having that kind of rapport with people, is probably my favorite part of the job.

Zachary Cartwright (19:55):

And you said that your clients are mainly East Coast now. Did you notice any difference once you went from Pullman, which is in Washington State, over here on the West Coast, to being on the East Coast? What types of differences have you seen with working with different clients?

John Russell (20:12):

Well, there are a lot of cultural differences between the Northwest and the East Coast, but when it comes to actually working with clients, I think we're all in it for the same reasons. We're trying to make high quality profitable products and we're trying to work with each other, as organizations. I don't know that there's anything remarkably different between an organization on the West Coast or on the East Coast. Some of the challenges are different. For example, East Coast is very high in humidity. So, the challenges in Pennsylvania in the summertime are very different from the challenges in Arizona, based on how humidity and temperature are affecting their production process. And that becomes very relevant when you're in a food processing plant. So, some of the challenges might be different.

John Russell (21:16):

I worked in Canada for quite a while, and that might be a different comparison because my heart is in Canada. I think that I was born a Canadian, but on the wrong side of the border. So, I have an affinity for Canadians. I just love being in Canada and working with them. I also love Americans, don't take it wrong.

Zachary Cartwright (21:38):

Of course. Well, I have to say John, one of my favorite memories when I started working last year was being able to go to that IAFP Conference with you and go to Louisville. I'm looking forward to someday being able to go to another conference and see you there. I want to thank you for your time today. This podcast is designed to interview a range of food scientists and engineers and company execs, and every now and then we want to highlight somebody at Meter Group. And so thank you for spending part of your time today and giving us some insight. Is there anything else that you want to add to finish up this podcast today?

John Russell (22:20):

I think this is good. I just really appreciate you thinking of me, Zachary. I feel honored. So, thank you. Yeah, I'll leave it at that.

Zachary Cartwright (22:33):

All right. Great. Thanks again, John.

John Russell (22:35):

All right. Thanks, Zach.

Zachary Cartwright (22:37):

I'm Zachary Cartwright. This is Water In Food. Find this podcast on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.