Episode 54: The Drip by AQUALAB: Creating Aviation Fuel from Waste with Alyssa Norris

About the guest 

Alyssa Norris is the Director of Sustainability at Aether Fuels, where she focuses on pioneering sustainable solutions in the aviation industry. With a passion for environmental innovation, Alyssa is at the forefront of transforming waste into aviation fuel, proving that travel and sustainability can go hand in hand. In this episode, she breaks down the science behind sustainable aviation fuel (SAF), its current applications, and the role it plays in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. She also explores the processes involved in production and how SAF contributes to a circular economy, paving the way for a greener future in air travel.

Transcript

Zachary Cartwright : 
Can we harvest trash to save airplanes? Welcome to the Drip, where we keep your mind hydrated with some science, music and a mantra. I'm your host, Zachary Cartwright, lead food scientist at Aqualab by Addium. In today's episode, we will be discussing producing aviation fuel from waste and how you don't have to choose between seeing the world and saving it. My guest today is Alyssa Norris, who is the director of sustainability and at Aether Fuels. Hi, Alyssa. Thank you so much for being here today. We appreciate you coming onto the show.

Alyssa Norris :
Of course, Happy to be here and excited to talk about sustainable aviation fuel.

Zachary Cartwright :
Yeah. What is sustainable aviation fuel?

Alyssa Norris :
Yeah. So sustainable aviation fuel, also known as SAF, is essentially a low carbon fuel alternative that can be used to power aircraft. It's essentially derived from sustainable resources, so that can be different. Waste products like used cooking oils, agriculture residues, forestry residues, even captured industrial waste gases can also be made from CO2 that's pulled from the air using direct air capture, as well as hydrogen that can be made from renewable energy through a process called electrolysis. But chemically, SAF, sustainable aviation fuel, it's almost identical to traditional fossil jet fuels. So it can be blended with, with traditional jet fuel and just lowers the carbon intensity of flight and of aviation.

Zachary Cartwright :
And why do we need SAF? Why is it important?

Alyssa Norris :
Well, first and foremost, it reduces greenhouse gas emissions and that's a really big thing. Right now, aviation industry accounts for about 3% of the total global greenhouse gases, which is quite a bit. So SAF can drastically reduce that. Also it helps decrease our reliance on fossil fuel, fossil resources, and it's another way to really contribute to the circular economy. So using a waste product that's something that's already produced versus something that has to be mined or extracted is so much better. Also just kind of along with the greenhouse gas emissions helps mitigate other climate change impacts. So again, using those waste products in a, in a better way. And lastly, the aviation industry as a whole is really keen on sustainability for those main reasons.

Alyssa Norris :
And, and this just further supports it.

Zachary Cartwright :
And is this something that's used in commercial aircraft now or when was it first introduced?

Alyssa Norris :
Yeah, it's actually used on the market today. The first commercial flight was in 2008 and that was a Virgin Atlantic flight on a Boeing 747 aircraft. And that was a mix of sustainable aviation fuel and normal fossil fuel. But just last year in 2023, there was the first commercial transatlantic flight that used a hundred percent. SAF is on a flight called Flight 100 and it flew from London Heathrow Airport, all the way to New York, jfk and that one used a hundred percent SAF and that was on a Boeing 787. So really exciting progress in the last 10 plus years.

Zachary Cartwright :
And are there other groups or other companies that are known for using SAF and is it spreading quicker now?

Alyssa Norris :
Yeah, so almost all of the large major airlines like United, JetBlue, Alaska Airlines, Delta, they all have commitments and use SAF. And we're seeing more and more airlines either interested or starting to use SAF today. Additionally, the United States military, both on the Navy and Air Force side, uses SAF and we're also seeing corporate and private jets use SAF. And so that's really an area that I see a lot of room for growth.

Zachary Cartwright :
And what is the process to making SAF, how is it produced?

Alyssa Norris :
Essentially there's two main chemical building blocks of SAF and that's hydrogen and carbon. You might hear liquid fuels called hydrocarbons and that's why. And you can use essentially anything that has those building blocks. So again, like our different waste feedstocks, we used oils, fats, greases, agriculture waste, any of those pieces, and then you can put them through a couple different processes to create the final sustainable aviation fuel. Right now there's kind of three main processes that are used today. One is called a HEFA project, which stands for hydro treated esters and fatty acids. And essentially used cooking oil, animal fats and oils. They're already very similar to the fuel end product that you would use for SAF.

Alyssa Norris :
But essentially you need to add more hydrogen to them. So there's a process called hydrogenation and you can basically use those oils, add hydrogen, go through that process, you have your final fuel product. Additionally, there's another process called the Fischer Trope synthesis. This can take any carbon material. And the first step is basically breaking down that carbon containing material into a gas. That's something called a synthesis gas. And that gives essentially the carbon building blocks to create that fuel later on. But the Fisher Tropes process then takes those gas parts.

Alyssa Norris :
There's a chemical reaction that it uses a catalyst and additional heat. And then the carbon and hydrogen building blocks create that liquid fuel on the other end. And then lastly, this is starting to get more traction. It's an alcohol to jet conversion. So alcohols traditionally have more. Well, they do have oxygen in them. And with alcohol to jet technology, the oxygen is removed, therefore just leaving you with the hydrocarbons. So those are the three main pathways that we see today.

Zachary Cartwright :
And does your company use a specific one? Of these pathways or do you kind of dabble in all of them?

Alyssa Norris :
Yeah, we do. So we've innovated around the Fisher Tropes pathway. So that's our pathway. Our companies innovated around the first step of the Fischer Tropes system. So essentially breaking down those materials, that's where we really innovated. And then the upgrading step, which is taking that partially finished fuel and then turning it into the final SAF product.

Zachary Cartwright :
And with my background, I'm always interested in the role that moisture plays in this process and how moisture relates to the safety or maybe the quality of these types of fuels. Is that something that you're able to talk about?

Alyssa Norris :
Yeah. So just like normal traditional fossil fuel, water and jet fuel don't mix. We really don't want water in our final product. Water is considered a contaminant. And ideally we want no water, no moisture at all. But it's almost inevitable that there's going to be some water and moisture that ends up in that fuel product. So there's three different kinds of water that can be present in kind of the final fuel product. One is called dissolved water.

Alyssa Norris :
Water that's dissolved all the way through that final fuel. It's invisible to the naked eye. If you had a glass of fuel, you wouldn't even see it. But it vaporizes during combustion, so that's not something that we're really worried about. Secondly is suspended water, and that's a little bit more concerning. If you hold up again, your little flask or your little jar of fuel, it might appear dull or cloudy. And that means that water's, you know, just fully suspended through that fuel sample. But typically some of that will vaporize, and it's not the end of the world.

Alyssa Norris :
And then lastly, we have something called free water. And since water is more dense than fuel, if you have free water, you end up with a separation level. So fuel sitting on top. The water that's heavier and more dense, settled at the bottom. And the danger is you'll get an ice layer if that freezes, which can be really, really bad for the aircraft. It blocks pipes. So that's what we don't want. So certainly don't want water in our end fuel.

Alyssa Norris :
And there's certain kind of normal steps to take for both staff and normal fossil fuel. And most commercial aircrafts have fuel heaters to address that, so we don't end up with blocked pipes.

Zachary Cartwright :
And where is this industry headed?

Alyssa Norris :
So I'm very optimistic. Obviously, being in this industry, I think that there's going to be a lot more increased production and increased adoption. We've already seen both. Here in the United States there's a huge push towards sustainable aviation fuel by both the government with certain, even tax credits for the Inflation Reduction Act. There's been a big push, something called the Sustainable Aviation Fuel Grand Challenge SAF Grand Challenge that's been put forth through multiple different government departments. And in Europe even there are certain standards and requirements that SAF has used and adopted. So certainly on the requirement side, we're seeing more and more besides that. I think airlines are realizing that this is something that will need to be adopted.

Alyssa Norris :
People are pushing for it more and more. Companies are pushing for it for more and more, especially as they have to start thinking about their scope 3 emissions. So I think we're just going to see a lot more adoption and the technologies and production is getting closer and closer to being at a commercial stage and being able to produce the amount that we need. But additionally, I think the cost of SAF is probably going to go down. Right now the cost of SAF is anywhere from about 2 to 7 times what the normal price of fossil fuel is. And that's. That can be a lot. So as we get more plants online, as the technology improves, as we're able really to scale up, then I think you'll see that cost go down and obviously more staff on the market.

Alyssa Norris :
So I'm very optimistic. But I think there's going to be a lot of changes and a lot of increase in the next few years.

Zachary Cartwright :
Why aren't we pursuing electric aircraft instead? Would that be a better option, especially for things like long haul flights or does staff still meet the requirements that we need for this?

Alyssa Norris :
Yeah. So for short haul flights, I love the idea of electric aircraft. I'm really excited about it. But the technology is just really not quite there. There's some, you know, safety issues. It's a much newer technology. We've been using fossil fuels and fuel in aircraft really since the beginning of aviation, of powered flight. So we kind of know we know a little bit more about fuel and how it's going to react than some of some of the electric aircraft.

Alyssa Norris :
There's also a lot of safety standards already around what fuel looks like, what its composition is, how it combusts, how it can be used, that type of thing. And for the long haul flights, SAF is just much more. And fuel in general is just much more energy dense. So you need really, really big batteries, really, really heavy batteries. And for the energy to get you from kind of long haul point A to point B. The technology is not quite there. We'd love to see it in the future, but not there. And additionally the infrastructure for SAF, because it is considered a drop in fuel, which means that you can, you know, use your existing infrastructure and you don't have to change the engines of the aircraft, you don't have to change your supply chain.

Alyssa Norris :
Even your holding tanks can potentially be the same. So it's a much easier fix and a much quicker fix and a much less capital intensive fix.

Zachary Cartwright :
And you mentioned that there are these three methods currently being used to produce SAF. How much more do airlines need now? You know, in an ideal world, if we could get all of them to start using this, how much is that production?

Alyssa Norris :
Well, in 2023 we only used about 0.2% of the total fuel consumption was sustainable aviation fuel. This year it's looking like it'll probably be 0.5%. So we still have a long way to go. And there are a lot of projects in the pipeline. But even if every single one of those projects was built today, we wouldn't even scratch the surface. Not to mention that fuel and aviation drive and demand are increasing every year. If we look ahead 20 years or even five years, we might not meet that target. So definitely needs to scale.

Zachary Cartwright :
And how can we ensure that SAF isn't going to compete with food production?

Alyssa Norris :
I guess a couple ways. One really making sure that the land that the fuel is potentially grown on, if you're using something like ethanol, it doesn't compete with already existing land that's used for food production. Additionally, I think using other biofuels or other fuels and waste sources that just don't compete in general. So like using some more of those waste products. So agriculture waste for example, doesn't compete with the agriculture itself and even some of those other non food feed stocks.

Zachary Cartwright :
And I was hoping that you could talk a little bit more about your company. Specifically what, what is your company? What's the goal or the mission? And what exactly do you do?

Alyssa Norris :
We are a sustainable fuels company. We're really focused on developing technology that can produce affordable and scalable sustainable aviation fuel. I mentioned earlier that the cost of SAF is really high. We know that for SAF to be sustainable in the marketplace, it has to be in an affordable level. So we focus primarily on the aviation and marine fuels industry. Our key technology is called Aether Aurora, which is feedstock flexible. It's much less capital intensive because our technology is scalable and can be much smaller than kind of your traditional Fossil fuel refinery technology and it can also be used globally because we can use so many different feedstocks. So we mentioned that the technology we innovate around and Ather uses is the Fisher Tropes technology.

Alyssa Norris :
And we've really innovated around the first steps, so making those steps better, more streamlined, less capital intensive and then the upgrading step better as well. So we've got a variety of proprietary catalysts and proprietary technology that we've built. That's what we're really excited about. And at the end of the day, sustainable aviation fuel is what we do and what we produce.

Zachary Cartwright :
And as the director of sustainability, what does your specific job look like? What are you doing day to day or what types of goals do you have?

Alyssa Norris :
So ather started in 2022, so that's just a few years old. We are still a startup company. That said director of sustainability for a sustainable fuels company gets to wear a lot of different hats. I really focus on environmental compliance and regulations, so making sure that our fuel at the end of the day and our processes meet certain standards and certifications. We're really, really cautious and I'm really hesitant about greenwashing, so we don't want to make claims that maybe are not true. Additionally kind of setting up and implementing corporate sustainability strategies, so making sure that at the corporate level and then for all of our projects and our final fuel that we're really all in line. And then lastly, really I get to spend a lot of time engaging with different stakeholders, playing a role in policy because so many of these sustainable aviation fuel policies are just in the works now. I do a fair amount of stakeholder engagement with different off takers, like different airlines, supporting the communities that we work in and talking to the general public through opportunities like this to just share a little bit more about SAF and tell the world what we're doing a little bit more.

Zachary Cartwright :
And if somebody listening is inspired, they want to support SAF and get more involved, what can they do?

Alyssa Norris :
My first recommendation is always just to learn a little bit more. If you're interested, there's some great resources about SAF2 that I would recommend. Starting with is just going and checking out the SAF Grand Challenge page. Department of Energy has some really good information there. Also there's a lot of information from different groups that are starting to buy SAF. One of those groups is called the Sustainable Aviation Buyers alliance and they have a series of programs and information that's really the SAF101. So what is SAF understanding? A little bit more and getting an idea of what it is and how it can be utilized. Additionally, you can absolutely support companies that are supporting SAF.

Alyssa Norris :
So certain airlines in particular, two that I'll call out that have really been front runners in promoting and supporting SAF projects and SAF companies. One is Alaska Airlines. So just a couple months ago, they released their online booking option. So when you book a flight, you can donate and support their staff efforts and you can actually earn miles on that as well. So if you're an Alaska Airlines fan, I would absolutely recommend that the other company is United Airlines, and they have an Eco Skies alliance, and that works specifically with corporations. So if you're part of a business and interested in SAF or interested in supporting SAF for your company's goals, that's a great group to get get involved with as well. And then lastly, just try to stay informed. And if you see anything on LinkedIn or there's a lot of different conferences just starting to get involved and understanding more about SAF and the different types of SAF.

Alyssa Norris :
One of the really, really cool things about SAF is that almost every single community here in the United States or abroad has an opportunity for SAF production and SAF generation as well as, you know, aviation really connects us all. I think just understanding how your community might already be engaging with staff projects or could engage with staff projects is a great step as well.

Zachary Cartwright :
I just booked a flight on Alaska Airlines and I noticed that option, and now I'm glad I know what this is all about. So thank you so much for clarifying that, and hopefully that's helpful to some listeners as well. I want to switch gears a little bit and ask you about your music recommendation. What. What music or song or genre have you brought with you today?

Alyssa Norris :
So, speaking about aviation and things that are up in the air, my recommendation would be Defying Gravity from the Broadway show Wicked. And Wicked, the movie is coming out soon and I'm very, very excited about that. My favorite character is Elphaba, and one of my favorite quotes that she says is that in that song, everybody deserves the chance to fly. So related to the topic today, I think sustainable aviation fuel definitely ensures that people will get a chance to fly sustainably and hopefully for generations to come. Um, so I. I would definitely recommend Defying Gravity from. From Wicked.

Zachary Cartwright :
And what mantra or what saying did you bring with you today? Something that maybe motivates you or brings some balance to your life.

Alyssa Norris :
When I was growing up, the Lorax was one of my favorite, favorite Dr. Seuss books and favorite books in general. If you haven't read it, I would highly recommend. It's about a three minute read, I think. But one of the quotes that the Lorax says is unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not. It's not. And that's something that I think about pretty much every day with sustainability, is that, you know, someone has to care, someone has to make it better.

Alyssa Norris :
Even if it's not always easy, sometimes it's, it's important to just take a step back and realize that, yeah, someone has to care. And sometimes that's you. So figuring out what, what you care most about and making sure that your energy and your time and your talents are going towards that, I think are really important.

Zachary Cartwright :
Well, thank you so much for that and thank you for coming on the show. This is a very different type of topic than what we've covered in the past. We generally look at food or pharmaceuticals and other things. But I think your message about sustainability and connecting this and understanding how this is moving and into your industry is really interesting and hopefully our listeners find it interesting as well. So thank you so much for being here.

Alyssa Norris :
Of course. Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks again for having me.

Zachary Cartwright :
Today's episode is sponsored by Aqualab. In this episode we briefly touched on how moisture can affect the safety of fuels. Did you know that Aqualab has a superior method for measuring water and fuels as well as oils and lubricants? These types of samples are extremely high in volatile components, making moisture methods and most water activity sensors incapable of getting an accurate reading. To overcome this challenge, a Tunable Diode Laser, or tdl, can be used to accurately, precisely and quickly evaluate the water in fuels, oils and lubricants. A link to an application note on the Tunable Diode Laser technology and how it works for oils and lubricants will be in the podcast description. Today's song recommendation is a track I just found called Ice Cream Paint Job by Sewdown. This is just such a vibrant fusion of both electronic bass music with definitely some strong hip hop influence. This track blends groovy beats with heavy bass lines, creating an energetic, dance worthy vibe.

Zachary Cartwright :
Sewdown's signature saxophone elements add such a smooth, jazzy touch that contrasts perfectly with the driving, futuristic drops. This song's rhythm and layers of sound keep it really engaging, making it such a great addition for anyone who enjoys a mix of electronic funk and also dubstep. It's a feel good track that brings a lot of flavor to any playlist. Check it out using the link in the podcast description. Finally, to round out this episode, I will be offering another mantra as a reminder. A mantra can be a single syllable, a word, or a phrase that you repeat to yourself to feel calm, motivate yourself, or to express something you believe. In this episode, mantra is it's not their job to like me, it's mine. I'm going to repeat this three times and and maybe you, the listener, can say it to yourself, or maybe even out loud.

Zachary Cartwright :
Here we go. It's not their job to like me, it's mine. It's not their job to like me. It's mine. It's not their job to like me, it's mine. As you keep this mantra in mind, I also challenge you to think about what are you the most proud about in your life and why? Thank you so much for listening to this episode. My name is Zachary Cartwright and this has been another episode of the Drip, brought to you by Aqualab. Stay hydrated and see you next time.