Episode 56: The Drip by AQUALAB: Fungi's Role in Future Foods & Medicine with Roman Libov

About the guest 

Roman Libov is a food scientist with expertise in plant-based foods and the integration of bioactive and psychoactive fungi into nutraceuticals. With a unique background bridging mental health and food science, he explores the intersection of functional foods and psychedelics. In this episode, Roman shares insights into the challenges and breakthroughs in formulating food products with psychoactive fungi, the evolving role of fungi in mental health therapeutics, and the future of these innovations in the food industry.

Transcript

Zachary Cartwright : 
What role will fungi play in our food system in the near and long term future? How about our individual and collective mental and physical health? And what is the intersection of food science and psychedelics? Welcome to the Drip where we keep your mind hydrated with some science, music and a mantra. As a lead food scientist at AQUALAB, I'm always looking through publications that mention water activity and recently found several about water activity and how other factors like temperature and ph can affect the growth and storage of different types of fungi. I've also noticed more recent publications that discuss fungi as industrial producers of food ingredients. This led me to connecting with Roman Libov, who is a food scientist who specializes in plant based foods and beverages with a focus on incorporating bioactive compounds and functional ingredients in food products. He focused his research on incorporating psychoactive fungi into various food matrices and currently he works as a food science consultant in plant based foods and looks at how to incorporate fungi into foods and nutraceuticals. Although his research focus was psychoactive fungi, he also helped clients with other medicinal and culinary fungi as well. Let's hear what Roman has to say. Hi Roman, welcome to the show.

Zachary Cartwright :
Thanks for being here today. Why do you focus your work on plant based foods and fungi?

Roman Libov :
Thanks for having me, Zachary. I like to think of plant based foods and fungi as a way to sort of improve public health outcomes, essentially. So I see these foods and broadly speaking, as a way of reducing the environmental impact of animal agriculture. I think by encouraging others to consume more plant based foods and fungi, it's a really significant step towards achieving those two things. I also think it's a lot of fun to play around in the kitchen and in the lab and make these foods and their sort of subsequent products more delicious and nutritive. Incorporating fungi from a nutrition standpoint is pretty cool because you can improve the quality of the nutrition in foods significantly, not only with the bioactive compounds that are available in fungi, but also from a micro and macronutrient perspective. This is also a really new, innovative arena and in general, you know, I find fungi very intriguing. I think there's a lot of potential for both novel plant based foods, fungi based foods, and the combination of the two.

Zachary Cartwright :
And it's my understanding that you were working on some mental health things before and what drove you from going from mental health to more of a food science approach.

Roman Libov :
Yeah, so I really became fascinated by the connection between nutrition and mental wellbeing, mental health, broadly speaking. I used to work as a clinician years ago and I really understood sort of anecdotally in my life and then, you know, based on interactions before I was a scientist, that nutrition plays a major role in terms of our mental and physical health. And this really sort of sparked my curiosity. I transitioned into food science because it allowed me to sort of explore more about how plant based foods are made, how to make them more nutritious. And I got to play with fungi and bacteria and I found that whole process of food microbiology really interesting. So it felt really kind of a, like a natural shift from mental health to nutrition to food science.

Zachary Cartwright :
And why fungi and maybe not bacteria or some, some other product.

Roman Libov :
I did work a little bit with bacteria, specifically B. Subtilis natto. And that was a really interesting experience. But ultimately I sort of wanted to focus more on fungi. I just was really fascinated by the nutritional and medicinal properties and the potential for, you know, biomaterials with fungi as well. Even though I didn't work on those directly. That sort of stuff really fascinated me. I think, particularly for, you know, maybe novel flavors or textures, I think fungi provide a really interesting space to kind of explore.

Roman Libov :
I see fungi as sort of an also an opportunity to develop food products that have unique, you know, sensory qualities while also enhancing food stability, shelf life. So from a food science perspective, there's some really interesting stuff that fungi have and some of those things are antimicrobial compounds. So, you know, could some compounds in fungi play a role in food stability and potentially helping our food system be safer globally? I think the food safety questions are really interesting, particularly from a clean label perspective. Maybe consumers would prefer elements from fungi being used versus, you know, synthetic ingredients. I think there's a lot of versatility in food applications, particularly from like plant based meats and fermented products. I also think that there are tons of potential, maybe sustainable food solutions, you know, for creating healthier, safer, and kind of more fun food options for consumers.

Zachary Cartwright :
And what can you tell us about the intersection of food science and psychedelics?

Roman Libov :
Yeah, so psychedelics was an area that I spent quite a bit of time on in my food science graduate training. And I think that, you know, we can use food science to optimize the delivery, sort of the stability, the absorption of various psychoactive compounds available in fungi. If we're, you know, once the regulatory stuff is sort of addressed, broadly speaking, I think there's some really interesting ways that fungi could create food product, that you could add fungi to food products to create a sort of a, a unique user experience, whether that's in the therapeutic setting or in other settings where people may consume these products.

Zachary Cartwright :
And when we're talking about psychedelic effects, what compounds specifically are we talking about? Is this just a few compounds or is it a big combinations of different things or is this something we're still trying to understand?

Roman Libov :
Yeah, this is kind of a big area of research. So we know that obviously psilocybin fungi is the sort of the main active bioactive ingredient. However, there's a process, there's actually, there's. There's a process for that particular ingredient, for that particular compound to be dephosphorylated in the liver and then converted to psilocin. And psilocin is actually the primary psychoactive compound that affects where people see all the effects. However, there are many other compounds and this is still sort of a hot area of research. Compounds like baeocystin, norobaeocystin, aeruginascin, they also likely contribute to the psychoactive experience. However, in many ways, you know, the other bioactive compounds, their roles are less understood.

Roman Libov :
And this is sort of a constant process that that's evolving. So with, with psilocin, the main sort of active compound in psychoactive, well, psilocybin, psychoactive containing fungi, this basically when you consume these fungi, the psilocybin is converted in the liver through a process called dephosphorylation and it attaches to specific serotonin receptors in the brain. The primary ones are the five HT2A receptors. And these are also known as, they're in a group called G protein coupled receptors. There is some indication that psilocin also interacts with the 5 HT2C and 5 HT1A receptors. However, we kind of understand that the 5 HT2A receptors are the main receptors in the brain where psilocin attaches to. And obviously like I mentioned earlier, you know, baeocystin, neurobaeocystin, aerin are other compounds that attach to these serotonin receptors. And often we think about this sort of entourage effect.

Zachary Cartwright :
It's.

Roman Libov :
This is a well known sort of conversation that's been had with cannabinoids and cannabis science, hemp science, I should say. And we know that with psychoactive fungi there is likely a similar entourage effect that happens with the other compounds that are present, the tryptamines and such.

Zachary Cartwright :
And looking through some of your research, I noticed that you put some of these psychedelic fungi into different food matrices. And why not just give this in a solid dosage form or maybe consume directly. Why specifically were you looking at putting these in different types of food?

Roman Libov :
That's a really good question. So in terms of how people access psychoactive fungi, based on the regulatory sort of environment in the US Specifically, you know, people are usually going through sort of underground sources or various other ways, and often they are consuming these products in a chocolate form, a gummy form. Usually those are the two most common. There are other variations of it. And people can consume the fungi directly. We're not recommending that, obviously, but this is how they're consumed. You know, people can, oftentimes people report that, you know, they don't like the taste of them, or in most of the studies that are done on, on psychoactive fungi, you know, they're using synthesized or isolated psilocybin at specific dosages in a capsule form, and that's only working with psilocybin. None of the other bioactive compounds I mentioned earlier, for many people, they don't like the taste of fungi or maybe these specific fungi.

Roman Libov :
So they want to mask that. Maybe they want to mask the, the earthy qualities. Maybe they want to have a sort of a more palatable, a pleasant experience with consuming them. And I think as a food scientist, it's really interesting, particularly how you use these fungi to dose them in food products. So it was really interesting for me, for my, like, research. It was really interesting to see how we could control dosage in various food products or food matrices, if you will. I also think that these consuming fungi through a food product can create a unique experience that you might not get if you take it in a capsule or you just, you know, chug it down or you just eat it without any sort of flavor enhancement. There's potential use in a therapeutic setting that, you know, where people might want to have a more delicious, palatable experience with consuming these.

Zachary Cartwright :
Beyond some of those sensory challenges that you mentioned, are there any other challenges incorporating psychoactive fungi into different types of foods?

Roman Libov :
Absolutely, yeah. So, like all food stability challenges, obviously maintaining the stability and potency of the active compounds is going to be affected based on what kind of matrix you put it in. So liquid matrices are going to be more complicated. You know, obviously things with low water activity, low exposure to light, oxygen, those things are obviously beneficial for maintaining the efficacy of these bioactive compounds. So it's, you know, similar challenges in a lot of food products that would be considered shelf stable. It's important to think about the stability challenges that occur, and there are many. The other thing to think about is ensuring sort of an even distribution and masking sort of the flavor of the fungi in the food products. So you have to play around with potential sort of, you know, natural or synthetic masking agents to sort of create that, distributing it.

Roman Libov :
So that way, if people choose it to dose it in a therapeutic setting, the clinician or the practitioner knows how much, how much of the particular food product to give. Um, and so that's another challenge. And obviously ensuring that adequate testing is done on these products is also really important. It's part of our, any food safety protocol, gmp, haccp, all of those things need to be followed. So similar challenges as with any food product, the only challenge is that because it would be in sort of the, you know, medical arena, there's, there's a bit more nuance there as well.

Zachary Cartwright :
So, and, and one of the things that you mentioned and I see a lot in my role is, is just the importance of water activity and maintaining different bioactive compounds, whether that's in a supplement or nutraceutical, that becomes extremely important. So I, I thought that was interesting that you brought up because maintaining that water activity can reduce reaction rates or, and the breakdown of these things that we're trying to preserve, if you have the right water activity and you're drying appropriately. So I definitely see the importance, even with this type of product, even though it's not widely produced, obviously that it would still be important to maintain certain parameters, including water activity. When you ran these experiments, I'm curious, did people consume them and did you study the effects or did people not consume them? And if not, why not?

Roman Libov :
So my work primarily these, these products were not consumed. And part of that is that there are significant regulatory challenges with getting people to test these products and consume them. So my work focused mainly on creating the stability. So it was on the stability of the product and sort of the, you know, various measurements of the bioactive compounds, but they were not consumed. Based on the regulatory environment that I was work working under during my research.

Zachary Cartwright :
And kind of going back to our previous comments on water activity and things, how, how does the potency of psychoactive comp compounds degrade over time? Are they pretty preserved and maintained at high levels or do you see a quick drop off or is it going to really depend on storage and other factors?

Roman Libov :
I think from a food science perspective, I think it's really important to also think about, like with any food product, really light, heat, oxygen, water activity are all going to affect stability. Specifically with psilocybin, those things do significantly affect it. And you will notice if you have ground mushroom, if you have pulverized powdered mushroom, it's going to be a specific type of stability than if you keep the whole mushroom or if you do an extract, whether that's, you know, an ethanol or a mixture of CO2 and ethanol extraction or water extraction. You're going to have various sort of compounds break down over time and there are various ways of preserving those. I have found that liquid matrices, specifically, anything with lot of water, not necessarily ethanol, the compounds do break down quite quickly. And so there are challenges if people are looking to do beverages or anything like that. I know with this CBD space, you know, that was a big challenge and there were ways of solving that. Whether that's some sort of emulsion process or nano emulsion, I didn't have a chance to really explore that.

Roman Libov :
But that would be an area that would be a significant challenge versus foods like dried foods or even gelled foods with lower, you know, if you have a packaged bar or something like that, it's going to have much less water activity than obviously a liquid beverage. But even like there are gel matrices where you can, you know, have more stability, but it's not infinite stability. Right. So there's, that's always something that I think about in terms of if I'm sort of consulting with anyone on, on any manufacturing process, working with fungi in general, but specifically with bioactive compounds and.

Zachary Cartwright :
Fungi and switching gears a little bit, what other exotic or maybe culinary edible fungi have you worked with and what types of products are these going into?

Roman Libov :
I've primarily worked with lion's mane. I've worked with some reishi, some shiitake cordyceps. There's a couple sort of top secret projects that I can't share anything about right now. But we're working with some, some pretty unique fungi right now that have potential for some really interesting applications, specifically in plant based foods and reducing our reliance on animal agriculture. But I'm currently open to working with a lot of different fungi. But the ones that I've specifically worked with are, would be lion's mane rishi, a little bit with shiitake, and then also oyster mushrooms. I've worked with both pink and blue. And there's, there's a lot of sort of functional variability that you can play with.

Roman Libov :
The ones that I've mentioned specifically with lion's maneuver and oyster mushrooms, which are pretty, pretty easy to grow. There's a lot you can do with them from a food science standpoint or even, you know, a culinary standpoint. But also, you know, I've worked with things like supplements where you do extractions, functional beverages with mushrooms incorporated in them, specialty foods, you know, in, in the health and wellness industry, but also, you know, in the supplement side, nutraceuticals, just something as basic as a, as an extract where you can measure the specific amounts of, of specific bioactive compounds from a, from a fungi and then incorporate that into a capsule or a tablet for people to consume as a sort of health promoting supplement.

Zachary Cartwright :
And in all those market groups that you did just mention, I, I see and I have more and more conversations where fungi is, is being mentioned and I see people trying to use it as an ingredient. And I'm just curious what you see as the role that fungi will play in our food system in, in the near and far long term future.

Roman Libov :
In the near term, fungi are already playing a very active role. I've never, you know, seen so much interest in fungi as I have in the last few years. If we're talking about from a food perspective, just like culinary or even, you know, culinary slash medicinal fungi that, you know, don't have regulatory challenges like the psycho psychedelic fungi do. Right now I think we're already seeing a lot of quote unquote, alternative protein sources and functional foods with fungi incorporated in them for their health benefits. Whether people are looking to, you know, take in more, you know, beta glucans for it to improve gut microbiome, to improve sort of gut brain access stuff, or if they're consuming fungi for, you know, macro and micronutrients, that's already happening. And there are tons of products out there that are doing this. Whether that's working with just the mycelium and then concentrated mycelium as a protein source or, you know, various extracts from mycelium itself or from fruiting bodies. And you know, not all fungi have fruiting bodies.

Roman Libov :
And so there's a lot to be done with, you know, the mycelium as well. So near term that's already happening and I see that sort of expanding the interest in fungi and their benefits are so broad right now. Long term, I see this sort of with, you know, as having some significant advancements in terms of biotechnology, likely food security and therapeutics and also biomaterials. This is sort of shifting right now. I've seen a lot of sort of biomaterial work upcycling, so waste streams. So when you, when you grow, let's say fruit bearing fungi, you know, when you grow those, the fruits, you have tons of mycelium. And that mycelium is a very rich biomass of nutrition but also potential for biomaterials. So that I see sort of kind of happening later on specific to food security, you know, therapeutics, biomaterials, and other advancements.

Roman Libov :
I just read a an article about, you know, incorporating psych psychedelics with video games as a way to help in the therapy room. So there's just some interesting stuff happening with fungi, kind of covering the gamut of not only food science, but the range of sectors.

Zachary Cartwright :
And just to bring this conversation full circle and come back to your original interest in mental health, what does the future of psychedelic fungi for mental health look like?

Roman Libov :
I hope regulation shifts happen and we have greater access to psychoactive fungi in their whole form. There is work currently being done, you know, on novel therapeutics for, you know, isolated compounds or modified compounds in various psychedelics and fungi being one of these types of therapeutics. However, I really would like to see regulation shifting and more people being able to access the psychoactive benefits of fungi in the therapeutic setting. And, you know, with trained practitioners, you know, and people who are able to offer integration for these sessions in an open setting, you know, where our system sort of supports that. I really do see that these particular compounds, specifically psychedelic or psychoactive containing fungi, will be a revolution in our treatment of things like ptsd, depression, anxiety, substance use disorders of various types, whether that's alcohol use disorder or opiate use disorders. And from a mental health standpoint, I see fungi and their bioactive compounds being used in significant ways to improve the mental public health of the US and hopefully globally.

Zachary Cartwright :
This is just such an interesting and important topic, and I appreciate your time and your insights, Roman. I think our listeners will find this really helpful, and so thank you for your time today. I want to move forward now and ask you what music you brought with you today. What recommendation do you have?

Roman Libov :
Oh, gosh, Lately I've been listening a lot to Sultan and Shepherd. Can't get their beats out of my head.

Zachary Cartwright :
Is there a specific song or part of the song that stands out to you? And we'll make sure to link it here.

Roman Libov :
Yeah, I really like the song called My Time by Sultan and Shepherd. It just came on.

Zachary Cartwright :
Perfect. Well, we'll make sure to link that. And is there a mantra or a saying or a motivational quote that you brought with you today?

Roman Libov :
I would say my mantra is when things kind of don't go your way, if you just have some patience through that process, eventually it will shift, like all things shift.

Zachary Cartwright :
Thank you so much for that, and again, we appreciate your time. This is such an interesting topic. I really look forward to the feedback that we get from our listeners on this. So thanks again.

Roman Libov :
Roman, thank you so much for having me on. And thank you for the amazing questions. I appreciate it.

Zachary Cartwright :
Today's episode is sponsored by AQUALAB. In this episode we discuss using fungi as ingredients. When it comes to natural ingredients, it is extremely important to measure water activity to increase quality and profits. These types of ingredients are highly susceptible to moisture issues during processing and storage, and using the right measurements brings huge competitive advantages. Links to a short webinar and also an application note covering natural ingredients 101 will be in this podcast description today My song recommendation is WHERE you ARE by John Summit featuring Hala. Where you ARE is a blend of melodic house and tech house with a really rich emotional core. John Summit is known for his dynamic beats and that underground sound, and this track combines that with Hala's haunting, heartfelt vocals. The song builds on dreamy synths and a driving bass, making it perfect for both club environments and also deeper introspective moments like the one that I got to witness this past weekend at the Gorge.

Zachary Cartwright :
The lyrics speak to a longing desire in wanting to be physically and emotionally close with somebody, and it's a beautiful journey of yearning that many listeners can connect with while still maintaining a euphoric, danceable this track is ideal for late night sessions or when you want a mix of both feels and groove. A link to this song will be in the podcast description. To round out this episode, here is another mantra. This episode's mantra is I am safe to be my true, authentic self. I'm going to repeat this three times and maybe you can say it to yourself or maybe even out loud. Here we go. I am safe to be my true, authentic self. I am safe to be my true, authentic self.

Zachary Cartwright :
I am safe to be my true, authentic self. As you keep this mantra in mind, I also challenge you to think about how you can understand yourself better. Who are you and what do you want to do? Thanks so much for listening to this episode. My name is Zachary Cartwright and this has been another episode of the Drip, brought to you by AQUALAB. Stay hydrated and see you next time.